A Dialogue on Life Between a Monk and a Layperson

This began when I opened my Moments one morning and saw a post from a Buddhist monk among my WeChat friends, which read as follows:

"Dawn is always indescribably beautiful. Why can a thing fully reveal its beauty? Because there is enough space. It is the same when a person wishes to survive and develop."

I gave it a like. Then we struck up a conversation.

Monk: Do you think what I said is right? [pleased]

Me: What the Venerable says is quite right. Happy holiday, Venerable; may you be filled daily with Dharma joy.

Monk: What holiday? [shameless]

Me: National Day.

Monk: Oh [facepalm]—I'd forgotten completely.

Me: Beijing is beautiful at this moment too.

Monk: Sharing the same sky [heh]

Me: Yes. This is a secular holiday; whether one remembers it is not important. Only ordinary beings take this holiday from their monotonous day-to-day work.

Monk: I always feel people are living such a pitiful existence. [facepalm]

Me: [grin] As long as someone is happy, that's fine.

Monk: For example, you. [chuckle]

Me: What is honey to one person is arsenic to another.

Monk: Your view is much like survival of the fittest.

Me: [grin] The Venerable is right. In fact, the same event is experienced differently by different people.

Monk: Is this also the Way?!

Me: For instance, the Buddha spoke of cutting off desire and casting out love. I can cut off desire, but I absolutely very much enjoy love, so it is impossible for my experience to match his.

Monk: Is love not also desire?

Me: Love is not desire; love is a most beautiful feeling.

Monk: How is it beautiful?

Me: When a love is one of mutual devotion and mutual care, benefiting others rather than the self, beauty reveals itself in that love. When a love is possession, a craving that the other should live for oneself, love turns into desire.

Monk: Simply put, it is the heart of benefiting others.

Me: Not only that. Love is also companionship of the heart.

Monk: Having left home, one doesn't speak of love and doesn't understand love. [facepalm]

Me: The Venerable's vows will one day make him an ascetic monk who, like a bright moon in the starry sky, loves all beings universally. As for me, I am merely a wild, unrestrained sentimental soul, still wandering in this world of men and women.

Monk: Actually we must understand love all the better; otherwise how can we understand the hearts of all beings? Great love is the Buddha heart.

Me: [grin] The Venerable is right. Love is the foundation of the knowledge of others' minds, and love is also the root of the heart that does not afflict others.

Monk: [grin] You are right.

Me: Different roads, same destination; the end point is the same, it is just that each person chooses a different path. Even the icchantikas all have the Buddha-nature; the great chiliocosm is nothing but a bodhimanda. Bodhisattvas are also sentimental souls—otherwise they would not deliver all beings.

Monk: It is not easy either to rise from an ordinary person's sentiment to a Bodhisattva's love.

Me: Venerable, some people are born with the spirit of universal love and need no sublimation; they directly choose the path of benefiting beings. Some people have been selfish from the start, and transformation is not easy. Throughout history, among both religious figures and the noble-minded of society, those endowed with the Mahayana Bodhisattva spirit are beyond counting. As long as we do not view things with a discriminating mind, among people in every walk of life around us there are many with a Bodhisattva heart.

Monk: Right. People inherently possess the spirit of universal love.

Me: But there are also many whose hearts are like weak butterflies, unable to fly across the vast, boundless, storm-tossed sea. They too must have unavoidable hardships—perhaps born into a bad environment, perhaps limited in education, perhaps through tortuous personal experience. All enter their predicament through the convergence of causes and conditions. In my post (as a doctor), I can only sigh deeply at my own limited ability, unable to "deliver beings according to their capacity."

Me: Among the many people I have known since childhood, those with a great Bodhisattva spirit seem to be born that way. Among the many people I have met since entering the Buddhist path, those who, no matter how they study the Buddha, still cannot step out of the shell of the small self also seem to be born that way. It seems education is best started from the root. Westerners take up religion in childhood; many Chinese only begin religion as adults. When worldly habits are already deep, rooting out the poison is not easy. A child's heart—sow goodness and reap goodness, sow evil and reap evil. A world of universal goodness and great harmony requires many generations to invest enormous effort in basic education. May the Venerable, on his future path of spreading the Dharma and benefiting beings, reflect on this question.

Monk: This kind of education is also a kind of reincarnation. [sweat]

Me: I do not believe in reincarnation. [grin] So I only focus on problems happening in this present life. Moreover, even if reincarnation exists, one should still cultivate this life well to benefit the next, and still should focus primarily on what is happening in the present. Once a thing is done, it cannot be made undone. The past has passed; no need to think more of it. By striving in the present, one can both do something to repent for all the past and accumulate something for the future. But in the final analysis, what the Buddha seems most to advocate is "the mind does not cling to the Way, nor does it create karma." [grin] "The Way" and "karma," in the end, are also empty.

Monk: Most people come with their karma and leave with their karma.

Me: Venerable, coming and going are also empty. [grin]

Monk: [chuckle] What is the purpose of living? Or, what is the ultimate meaning of life—your understanding?

Me: I thought about this question in my twenties. I once thought I had found the answer, but later I negated it all. To be born a human being and to take joy in it is enough; I will not go looking for trouble by thinking about this question again.

Monk: And now, what is the "it" in "taking joy in it"?

Me: This "it" arises and ceases from moment to moment. When eating, the "it" is eating; when reading, the "it" is reading.

Monk: Live when it is time to live, die when it is time to die; enjoy the present, come and go freely. [heh]

Me: Yes, Venerable.

Monk: "It arises and ceases from moment to moment"—this line [strong]! You really know how to answer a question. [pleased][rose]

Me: It is the Venerable who is so understanding.

Monk: Hmm, if I were not understanding I would not be a "person"; it shows I am still a normal human being. [grin]

Me: The Dharma is in the world, not apart from the awakening of the world.

Monk: After all these years of life, having experienced much, what is the "Way" as you understand it?

Me: Venerable, there is no Way. The Buddha himself said "the mind does not cling to the Way." He also said "all sages, by virtue of the non-doing dharma, are differentiated." And he said "all conditioned dharmas are like dew, like lightning, like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow."

Monk: What is differentiated?

Me: Differentiation arises from the different arising of causes and conditions, but the intrinsic nature is empty. That is why the Buddha said "the mind does not cling to the Way, nor does it create karma."

Monk: There is still a rule that exists.

Me: Venerable, the only rule in my heart is to try my best not to harm others, and to help when I can. Everything else is not worth being a rule. Once there is a "Way" in the heart, there is a "not-Way"; with a "Way" and a "not-Way," there arises a discriminating mind. With a discriminating mind there is no impartial mind. Losing the impartial mind gives rise to greed, anger, ignorance, pride, and doubt.

Me: The other shore is a state, a state free of afflictions. All methods relied upon to enter this state are only boats to cross the river. The boat itself is not the goal; freedom from afflictions is the goal. Therefore there is no such thing as the Way.

Me: Venerable, the worthies of old said "every day is a good day," and also "as if entering a realm of fire, one attains the gate of coolness." As I understand it, this is the nirvanic state of being released from the suffering of samsara. This is not any "Way"; it is a psychological state—a state of mind no longer troubled or bound.

Me: Seeking the Way is like seeking a rabbit's horn; abandoning the Way gives rise to awakening. If people do not harm one another, the human world is heaven. If people slaughter one another, the human world is hell. Venerable, what I focus on is striving to build a human world in which people do not slaughter one another.

Monk: Don't you think that is very hard?

Me: It is very hard. But is not the Buddha-ification of the world also very hard? [grin] Are not the monks still striving on, one after another? [grin]

Monk: [chuckle] Thank you; your thoughts have also given me much inspiration. [pleased]

Me: The Venerable's devotion and spirituality are also something I deeply admire. I am still only a muddled insect drifting through the human world, not understanding the "profound and subtle Dharma," and speaking without restraint; I beg the Venerable's forbearance.

Monk: Open exchange—anyway, there is no Way. [chuckle]

Me: Talking with the Venerable is always pleasant, bringing joy to both body and mind. The Venerable's cultivation is excellent; thank you, Venerable, for bearing with my arrogance and ignorance.

Monk: That's all right. The ignorant are fearless; I am grateful for your fearless giving. [chuckle]

Me: [grin] Thank you, Venerable, for your humorous teaching.

Monk: All right then—happy holiday! [chuckle]

Me: Happy holiday, Venerable!

The above is my conversation today with a certain monk (to avoid disturbing this quiet monk's secluded practice, I will not reveal his identity).

The Venerable is of excellent cultivation; he has never stood on ceremony when talking with me. We are close enough to drop formality, and occasionally joke with each other. I have basically recorded the dialogue verbatim, occasionally correcting a typo or ungrammatical sentence, and deleting a line or two that might cause misunderstanding.

I hope that, when you discuss this, you will also observe the principle of mutual respect in how we conduct ourselves.

I am a very shallow person, lacking the reserve and modesty of the Venerable. When speaking with people I know well, I have no sense of proportion, and much of what I do and say may not be correct. I write this out only for your reference; where I fall short, I beg the Venerable's forbearance, and I ask learned experts to offer corrections.

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